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Sir John Kirwan believes it is time to move on from Eden Park. It will surprise some people because the rugby legend enjoyed some of the greatest moments of his career at the historic venue.

He was an Auckland mainstay during their halcyon days in the 1980s and early 90s when they were the biggest show in town.

Kirwan was also a key member of the All Blacks who won the 1987 World Cup at the Sandringham stadium, with his iconic try in the opening game part of rugby folklore.

But he doesn’t want to look back. Instead, he is backing a downtown option for  before a council decision expected to be made this year.

“I’m an Aucklander born and bred,” Kirwan tells the Herald. “I love my city. I want us to be the greatest city in the world. But we need to think bigger. What’s the best thing for our city?

“When I looked at it, I tried to take the emotion out of it. So I put Eden Park and a new stadium together.

“I thought, ‘Don’t get political, John. Don’t start reminiscing, talking about what it was like in your day. Just think about what is best for the next 50 or 100 years'.”

In July 2023, Auckland Council convened a special working group to investigate the city’s main stadium options.

Four bids were assessed in detail, before Eden Park 2.1 and the Te Tōangaroa precinct development in Quay Park were

Eden Park's capacity would lift to 60,000 under the 2.1 vision. Image / Eden Park Trust

The competing proposals were given about nine months to prepare self-funded feasibility studies – including costings and source of investments – which will be presented to council next month. A final decision is expected in the second half of this year.

Kirwan, who is involved in a project to develop a , has been an interested observer of the debate.

He played in some grand arenas across the globe before coaching in Italy, Japan and New Zealand. He has seen what works in the right location with the right mix of content and is excited by the Quay Park proposal, which includes a 50,000-seat stadium scalable to 20,000 as the focal point of a precinct with up to four hotels, hospitality venues, apartments and commercial offices at the eastern end of downtown.

“We need a stadium where all our professional teams can play in and a venue that people spill out and they’re in town,” says Kirwan.

“That would help the inner city – we’ve got some challenges in our inner city. You could spill out 40,000 people, which would fill the bars and restaurants, right?

“If it’s done properly and there’s a precinct, there’s things to do, there’s trains going all the time, but also you can walk 500m and you’d be around the waterfront; that appeals to me.

“But it needs to be multi-use, not just about rugby or sport. We should be rolling the grass in, rolling it out – for concerts and other things. Just like they do in America, a real fan experience.

“That’s my vision. Can Eden Park do that? Question mark. If they can, then that’s what they need to do. So they need to build a precinct, get rid of the No 2 ground, have bars and restaurants. We had a World Cup [in 2011] and we had freaking tents on the back lawn.”

John Kirwan fends off the French attack in the 1987 Rugby World Cup final at Eden Park. Photo / John Stone

Kirwan made his Auckland debut in 1983, famously picked from Marist’s third-grade team as an 18-year-old. He was a focal point for the next decade and included a record 61 Ranfurly Shield defences during 1985-93.

Kirwan played 78 of his 141 provincial matches at Eden Park, along with 16 of his 63 tests. They were special times.

“The hardest thing would be the tradition, moving away from Eden Park. A lot of memories, a lot of history, but it’s time to move on.

“I don’t live much in the past, so those things don’t worry me. It’s not my time any more. I’ve had my time. It’s Rieko Ioane’s time. It’s other people’s time. I had beautiful memories. Some of them are scoring the try against Italy, others are sitting in the changing room having a beer.”

Kirwan also wonders why Eden Park Trust can’t combine with those behind Quay Park to find a common solution.

“Is there a way they could work together? I don’t know. But we could have the same arguments around Eden Park for years to come; the shape, it’s hard to get to, the locals, the noise. It’s got millions of debt.”

Eden Park has a legacy of big events, from rugby and cricket World Cups to the Fifa Women’s World Cup in 2023. It has also been the home of a 30-year unbeaten streak for the All Blacks.

“The history might be really important to some people. But for me, it’s not. You have to think about the future.”

Kirwan cites his 9-month-old grandson, Carlo John (CJ).

“What will be best for him? What kind of stadium? What kind of city?”

Given his long links with Auckland Rugby Union, one of the venue’s trustees, Kirwan expects backlash for his stance, especially from traditionalists or those with a long association with Eden Park.

“I’d just ask people, instead of criticising me, to answer the question: what is best for our city? If everyone decides it’s Eden Park, I’ll live with it. This is not personal for me. I just want people to work together on this rather than it becomes political.

“I’d just ask all those people that want to stay at Eden Park to keep asking that question: what’s best for everybody? Can we have the things we need to make this place great? If the answer is yes, something that is going to be special for my grandson in 30 or 40 years, fantastic.”

Fellow Auckland and All Blacks icon Sean Fitzpatrick has a similar view to Kirwan’s. Based in England for more than 20 years, he has watched developments from afar and understands why New Zealand Rugby has chosen to back the Quay Park proposal despite the long association with Eden Park.

“They’ve decided they need to look at other options and downtown has been on the go for a number of years,” says Fitzpatrick. “They’ve obviously done their homework.”

Since his retirement in the late 1990s, Fitzpatrick has noted trends in stadiums and precinct options. He has travelled the world watching the All Blacks, attended plenty of matches in England and Europe, and is also directly involved in sport in his roles as chairman of the Laureus World Sports Academy and Laureus Sport for Good Foundation.

“The way people are consuming live sport now, it needs to be appealing,” he says. “It needs to have options pre-match, post-match, it needs to be accessible in terms of transport, multiple choices – otherwise you’re not going to get people watching live sport.

“The profitability of stadiums is a key issue too, and that’s the same the world over. If Eden Park is the best option, when it all comes out, so be it, but we need to make sure that any stadium is viable and the fans want to come back.”

Kirwan and Fitzpatrick agree any future option has to be funded from mostly private investment rather than the public purse.

“It’s got to stack up financially,” says Fitzpatrick. “That’s key.”

Fitzpatrick has also enjoyed the atmosphere created at rectangular stadiums across England and Europe, with steep grandstands and fans metres from the action.

“You want to be involved and feel part of it, close to the action. It’s the game-time experience that’s going to bring fans back. Whether Eden Park can make those changes, I don’t know.”

Like Kirwan, Fitzpatrick is Eden Park royalty, with more than a century of matches there. He made 83 of his 155 Auckland appearances at the ground, along with 12 of 25 Blues games in 1996-97. The tally includes 17 of his 92 test matches.

“Obviously, there is a lot of history there for me, but times have changed. There are so many rugby memories and no one can ever take those away and you obviously have an affinity to the place.

“But if we’re doing what’s right, we would definitely look at all options. To pour more money into something that’s not viable – why would we do that? Otherwise we’ll be having the same discussion in 20 years. Solet’s make the right decision now.”

Fitzpatrick emphasises he has “huge respect” for everyone involved with Eden Park, adding that some of his “good mates” are involved with the 2.1 proposal. That plan includes a retractable roof, lifting capacity to 60,000, a new North Stand, redeveloping two other grandstands and a pedestrian overbridge to Sandringham Rd.

“I respect the reasons why they’re backing it. We have to find the best long-term option. It’s about evolving. Change is always difficult and there’s a lot of sentimental value in Eden Park. But, hopefully, this process will work out what is the best scenario.”